Apache RTR 180 ‘Menace’ From TVS

by Deepak on June 6, 2009

The launch of two different models of Apache; RTR Fi and RTR 180 within a span of twelve months just goes on to highlight the level of competition prevailing in the Indian motorcycle market. With the sales of RTR Fi not going that smoothly thanks to its fuel injection complaints, meanwhile TVS have managed to keep the competition alive by bringing out a fresh variant: Apache RTR 180.

The highlight of the new Apache RTR 180 or nicknamed ‘MENACE’ is its powerful 180cc engine. It produces about 17.3ps of power and 16.5nm of torque. It goes from 0 to 60kmph in 4.15 seconds and records top speed of 125kmph. Gun that throttle and you will know what TVS is hinting at.

Though the bike’s small size and other basic configurations have purposely kept unaltered (probably to retain that RTR appeal) yet, you can see small improvements in the bike. These includes longer wheelbase which aids in better control of the vehicle. Newly developed TVS Srichakra tubeless tyres in addition to larger footprints brings much needed stability to the bike with enhanced grip on the road.

Something new to the RTR range which is also not seen on any other Indian bike is its new superbike styled rear detachable mudguard. This should add more oodles to the RTR Quotient. Passionate riders can use the slim mudguard while people who are conscious of mud splashing over during monsoons can switch over to the conventional and more functional style mudguard. Another dirt racing inspired Rotopetal front and rear Disc brakes ensures effortless and efficient braking.

On the cosmetics side, the Bike sports a huge ‘RTR’ print on its air scoops and tank in addition to ‘RTR 180’ on side end of the body. This has been made to make RTR more visually appealing. The bike is being launched in white color and a white self illumination rims is also there. The front and rear shock absorbers are painted golden on all models. The RTR 160’s or RTR Fi’s logo on the middle of handlebar is replaced by black RTR 180 logo. The tachometer is colored white and black considering the racing DNA being unleashed.

The bike sports no other new features and probably it doesn’t need any such. The RTR 180 once in the market will face direct competition from Bajaj Pulsar 180.But with all latest features already on the RTR range; it seems fully armed to tackle all its competitors. With Yamaha’s international range expanding itself on Indian motorcycle segment and Bajaj Auto playing as a smart player, only time will tell that unlike RTR FI, the RTR 180 will prove to be a tough competitor or some another RTR (expected RTR 200) will do that. Till then, expect some Menace.

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{ 59 comments… read them below or add one }

fas June 7, 2009 at 1:11 pm

Well TVS seem to be targetting Bajaj and its likely they will emerge victorious. The RTR series are really very good in braking and handling and Bajaj can’t really match up to TVS when it comes to quality.

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Shiva June 7, 2009 at 4:07 pm

Apache is good to ride in city traffic.
But when we want to suddenly increase the spped means it does not respond to the expected power.
The starting power delivary is good, but after 70-80Kmph and all it is slowly increasing its speed.

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VARUN June 7, 2009 at 5:46 pm

fas: Well TVS seem to be targetting Bajaj and its likely they will emerge victorious. The RTR series are really very good in braking and handling and Bajaj can’t really match up to TVS when it comes to quality.

Well TVS has already won its legal battle with Bajaj auto over breach of its patented technolgy over TVS

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shiva June 8, 2009 at 11:06 am

Shiva: Apache is good to ride in city traffic.
But when we want to suddenly increase the spped means it does not respond to the expected power.
The starting power delivary is good, but after 70-80Kmph and all it is slowly increasing its speed.

VARUN:
Well TVS has already won its legal battle with Bajaj auto over breach of its patented technolgy over TVS

KArizma is the best one when u compared to pulsar and apache

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karan May 5, 2011 at 2:40 pm

well karizma is the road king and we cannot compare wid them its another thing

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Alex June 9, 2009 at 8:19 am

yes …..goo for lessing the geer and accelerate during 70-80 kms …it gonna make difference …….

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shiva June 10, 2009 at 4:43 pm

Alex: yes …..goo for lessing the geer and accelerate during 70-80 kms …it gonna make difference …….

I tried by pulling it by reducing the gear but it is not pulling suddenly some noise occurs in the piston while doing like this….

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dhiraj c raut June 13, 2009 at 5:42 pm

shiva: I tried by pulling it by reducing the gear but it is not pulling suddenly some noise occurs in the piston while doing like this….

i think there is some problem with u r bike

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hemant June 14, 2009 at 11:12 pm

it Tyre is not thick as pulsar n its height is also small in compression to pulsar but its two piece Handel make me to attract on it

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nishanth June 15, 2009 at 12:57 pm

the bike is out in chennai….i’ve just nw given it a test ride….its one heck of a bike….better than ny 180cc i’ve ever ridden….its gonna kick the ass of p180 nd p200 nd also fz….rtr 180 is too good to be true…dont miss this one guys….its a white stallion…..the on road price is 73k

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hari June 17, 2009 at 11:41 am

ya the bike is out in chennai i made a test drive yest day the pickup is not as good as my rtr 160 fi

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rahul June 17, 2009 at 8:40 pm

Shiva: Apache is good to ride in city traffic.But when we want to suddenly increase the spped means it does not respond to the expected power.The starting power delivary is good, but after 70-80Kmph and all it is slowly increasing its speed.

Apache rtr loves to be revved… it generates more power the more u revv it… short stroke engines are to revved to be powered… u got it wrong when u said after 70 it increases slowly.. ever tried takin an rtr above 5k on the tacho.. if you are any thin.. betta glue ur pants on the seat buddy… u have no idea the kinda power it delevers about that rpm…

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nishanth June 19, 2009 at 10:53 am

the bike just zooms after the 60 mark…..it took mearly a second to reach 85 frm tat point

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pravin June 30, 2009 at 12:28 am

Hi friends, I have an apache-fi. I just want to know whether apache180 is faster than apache-fi. I would also like to know about the mileage of apache180. my apache fi is giving around 45kmpl.

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It's now or never... June 30, 2009 at 7:12 pm

The recently launched APACHE RTR 180 is more faster than its Fuel Injected version. RTR FI can notch upto 120km/hr while RTR 180 can go upto 124km/hr.

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pravin July 7, 2009 at 8:36 pm

Hi “It’s now or never”

I know that the top speed of apache 180 is 125 and that of apache-fi is 120, but I am not asking about that. Even Herohonda-Karizma has more top speed than apache-fi, but it cannot catch apache-fi in pickup. I have personally overtaken karizma so easily up to 4′th gear (90km speed), but after that both the bikes have identical pickup and in long karizma can catch me(apache-fi).
All I want to know is WHICH ONE HAS BETTER PICKUP (NOT TOP SPEED) (APACHE-180 OR APACHE-FI).

What is the mileage of apache 180?. My apache-fi gives me 45kmpl approximately.

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avir November 11, 2010 at 11:09 pm

My new just 3years old RTR 180 is giving me 37-40 in city, and 42-46 in high road.

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It's now or never... July 7, 2009 at 10:45 pm

You didn’t mention the phrase ‘Pickup’ earlier buddy. You had asked which one’s ‘Faster’ and its known by measuring the Top speed of bike.

In terms of pickup, the RTR 180 delivers quicker lap times in comparison to RTR FI thanks to its 177.4cc much powerful engine which offers lightning quick acceleration and Throttle Response.

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pravin July 9, 2009 at 1:59 am

Hi “It’s now or never”

If apache 180 is faster and cheaper and easy to maintain than apache-fi, then what is the point in TVS selling apache-fi alongside of apache-180?? Are they going to stop selling apache-fi???

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It's now or never July 9, 2009 at 12:40 pm

For your kind information APACHE RTR 180 is expensive than the RTR FI,You should have been convinced by the fact that RTR 180 gives around 17 while FI gives dot 15.7bhp. The RTR FI is a big improvement from the RTR 160, while RTR 180 is a full upgrade.
And no one knows RTR FI could also be stopped primariliy b’coz it has failed to clock TVS’s sales chart. People are still preferring RTR 160 over RTR FI mainly due to its Fuel Injection complaints and other hosts of complaints including non trained service centers apart for being many thousands more than the RTR 160. Its practically impossible to sell at this loss. Thats why they never introduced Fuel Injection In RTR FI. Maybe they’ll try FI in future models. Even Pulsar 220 has shedded away its FI and corporated DTS-i.

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pravin July 10, 2009 at 2:26 am

I cross verified the price of apache 180 at Goodwill-Tvs, Chennai, and IT IS CHEAPER THAN APACHE-FI BY AROUND 1000 TO 2000 BUGS.
I hate TVS for fooling people like this. I regret for spending 75000 bugs on a useless model like Tvs apache-fi.

One of my close friend is about to buy apache-180 (I am the one who recomended apaache-180). But now, I am gonna stop him from buying TVS brand and ask him to go for brands like Yamaha or Bajaj.

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Him October 29, 2011 at 9:48 pm

Good decission dude.i have apachi 180 ,when tvs bikes are gating older it shows engine problem yar..

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pravin July 10, 2009 at 2:46 am

Fi model is not cheaper than 180.
apache 180 is approximately Rs.7300 (on road), and apache-fi is approximately Rs.74000+ (on road) in chennai.

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Its now or never July 10, 2009 at 1:05 pm

I’ll reconfirm its prices.
But I fully agree with ur veiws on Tvs fooling its company.
About one and a half years back when I went into one of the Gurgaon dealers, They said they would give free mirrors and saree guard with APACHE RTR 160. I said the bike itself has its own Mirrors (in the brochure) and saree guard is mandatory under Indian motor vehicles act and comes fitted from factory itself. Just days after buying the so callled ‘Digital Speedometer’ stopped working. It took more than 6 months time to repair it. No it has again gone bad.
You are right there’s no transparency in Tvs. We should stop people from buying TVS Vehicles

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TOP-FUEL July 20, 2009 at 5:45 pm

Its now or never: I’ll reconfirm its prices.
But I fully agree with ur veiws on Tvs fooling its company.
About one and a half years back when I went into one of the Gurgaon dealers, They said they would give free mirrors and saree guard with APACHE RTR 160. I said the bike itself has its own Mirrors (in the brochure) and saree guard is mandatory under Indian motor vehicles act and comes fitted from factory itself.Just days after buying the so callled ‘Digital Speedometer’ stopped working. It took more than 6 months time to repair it. No it has again gone bad. You are right there’s no transparency in Tvs. We should stop people from buying TVS Vehicles

HI “Its now or never”,
The 1st problem you faced is purely dealer issue.
Apache RTR comes loaded with everything .Saree gaurd, Two RV mirrors,side stand are standard accessories. Something is really wrong with the Gurgaon dealer.
Your 2nd problem is valid.But again 6 months time is too much. I again have aprehensions about the dealer you bought. Try some other dealer if possible for future services.
I appreciate your and others views, but to bluntly blame a manufacturer is pointless.many others are happy and enjoying a trouble free performance from Bikes from Indian manufacturers.
All bikes manufacutured are not 100 % trouble free (irrespective of manufacature).But the service offered by 3rd party dealers are to be blamed often.
Many dealers don’t follow or give proper training to the technicians, if it is company sponsored only then they’ll have some sort of training about latest tech.
I love Bikes,irrespective of manufacturer.
Indian bikes are on par with foreign bikes.Only the capacity is very less.Indian manufactured bikes spares are cheap.Especially Bajaj & TVS .Honda Yamaha Suzuki bike are also very reliable but some spares are notoriously high, especially Honda ,hero honda.
BUT for me It’s not the Brand that concerns It’s the Bike as an overall package that concerns.
Enjoy. God Bless

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Its now or never... July 21, 2009 at 10:26 pm

No bike is 100% trouble free but its the ability of Dealership that counts.Recently i felt that there was not good front disc braking after a paid service. They said the brake pads have to be replaced.I told them it had been replaced just moths before from the same place.I told them whatever had happen the brakes were noticeably more effective before the service.Then they themselves were left blank faced. One dealer from which the bike was purchased has been closed(maybe ‘coz of reccession or poor sales) And There’s no other TVS Dealer in Gurgaon presently and going to Delhi for services and other issues is very expensive.
Manufacturer is the one who selects and puts up service stations. Their job doesnt stop after they make their bikes.A good service chain and quality maintainence only would stride them ahead.So even Company have some part in checking Dealer errors
Hero Honda is known for its High quality services and dealership. Its this very fact that made it not only India’s but Worlds no1 Motorcycle manufacturer.

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rakshith August 31, 2009 at 11:36 am

i love apacheRTR.. i jus want to know tat when will apacheRTR 180FI be lauched..?if someone knows about tat pls mail me tintu.h.gowda@gmail.com. Thank u

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It's now or never... September 1, 2009 at 6:11 pm

TVS played safely this time by bringing out a non FI version of the upgraded Apache RTR. Everybody knows(i hav seen even dealers admitting it) the RTR FI had a long list of Maintainence problems and other issues due to its Fuel Injection technology. Maybe TVS is not yet prepared for it yet. Probably an RTR 180 Fi version would not be coming atleast in the near future. An d TVS has bigger plans. just wait for the Apache RTR 200(with Performance enhancement kit). Before that TVS Fero 250 is also coming(this year). It is said have a single seat and a reply to new ugraded Karizma(yet to be launched).

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rakshith September 2, 2009 at 1:39 pm

can i see the apache 200 pictures..?when is it going to be launched..?

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It's now or never... September 3, 2009 at 6:05 pm

Photos are not out yet. It would be launched in early 2010. It maybe showcased first in the 10th Auto Expo.
Meanwhile Dates are out for the 10th Auto Expo which is also Asia’s 2nd largest automobile exhibition. It will be held from 5-11th january 2010 at Pragati Maidan,New Delhi.

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NAVIN September 10, 2009 at 11:40 am

i am having tvs rtr 180.its giving 47kmpl in highways in avg speed 70kmph.in city its giving 45kmpl in avg speed 55-60kmph.

i like to say something positive and negative points

i am very slim 167cms height and 55kgs weight
i am riding 180 upto 130kmph while i am going long trip more than 60km per day i am feeling left hand shoulder pain.and engine getting warm up in constant speed.this is the only one negative point about rtr

then speed pick up excellent i am having yamaha rx100.after that rtr180 is good.i took test drive bajaj pulsar 220.pick up speed ok but control??
my friends also tested bp220 they are bigger than me but controlling the bike in sudden action is impossible
comparing with bp220 milage is good in rtr180

we made a race from salem to erode 61kms distance
between pulsar200 apache fi 160,rtr180,fz16,bajaj avenger,pulsar 180,thunder bird,
rtr180 reached the target first
good pick up good control

braking effort excellent but service should be improve
ok dear pl revert me for my comments

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Nikhil September 15, 2009 at 6:57 pm

I have apache RTR 180. it is excellent performance in all bike. I m very happy to chose this bike. Thank’s to TVS team.

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dipesh view April 19, 2011 at 11:11 pm

congrats Nikhil i can trust your test result A180 have good mid range torque and top whack. Its fun bike.

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pravin September 17, 2009 at 7:49 pm

hi “NAVIN “, You said that apache180 won the 61km race. Can you please tell the entire finishing order of these bikes and the top speeds all these bikes achieved. As I own an apache-fi I wish to know how slow is apache-fi compared to apache 180.

Thanks for the very useful information you are about to share, in advance.

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ashish September 24, 2009 at 11:29 pm

Hi, friends….

i am going to buy Apache rtr 180, soon around Diwali.just having a little bit knowledg about the bikes, jst want to ask that is it worthfull to buy it,or you people suggest some other one.

and i liked this bike as its best suited for my budget and liked the looks, and what its mileage…????

its costing me 69000 in delhi….

waiting for the replies…….

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dhiraj c raut September 26, 2009 at 2:45 pm

go for it ashish …..its a good bike..u will love it..

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Its now or never... September 29, 2009 at 4:16 pm

You seem to be a Apache fan, dont you?
Well if i was in your place i would wait for another 2-3 months, save a little more and go for something even bigger. The RTR 200. The Auto Expo in Jan next year will see a huge range of motorcylces being launched. So its definetly worth waiting till such time.

But if u hav already made up your mind to buy a bike now. You should also look at Yamaha Fazer or the Karizma FI (though it is little costly). Try looking at RTR FI also.
No doubt RTR 180 is also a great bike to buy.

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ashish September 30, 2009 at 12:35 am

wat is the status of tvs in terms of providing services for the bike, and what is about its spare parts as on a long run these things can’t be neglected……….

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Its now or never... September 30, 2009 at 4:57 pm

That is one area where you could really be very disappointed. From my experiences i stick to that. Atleast in my city(gurgaon. The post sales services are very far from being satisfactory. You would run away from TVS if u come to know more. So i would say buy the bike and maintain it properly.

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Kishore October 15, 2009 at 11:54 pm

Hi guys…
I have recently bought a yellow apache 180 in chennai.After having my first service done i was able to see what really it was.The bike out performs my friends fazer,fz-s and pulsar 180 in terms of pickup and mileage(43-47).

Vibrations are lesser than previous versions of apache and when it comes to handling with its new broader tyres is good(not as good as the pulsars with MRF tyres).As far as braking is concerned you need not worry as the rotopetal discs provide really awesome braking.

some people claimed that apache seating gave back pains during long ride but i didn’t fell anything even after a 4hrs continuous ride.

If you are looking for raw power then this is it.

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Siddharth November 15, 2009 at 3:58 pm

hi All, This is Sid, having APACHE RTR 180, Its showing 45 Kmpl so far before the 1st Servicing, Its a cool Machine and an eye catcher too. Its better than the Pulsar 180 which is now too boring in indian roads…

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happy boy November 23, 2009 at 9:42 pm

hi guys me 2 planning 4 a rtr menace i just want to know about the vibrations in rtr 180, i like the spec of the bike but concerned about the vibrations which others say, so plz share ur experience and opinion,

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Saurabh November 28, 2009 at 10:34 am

Hi guys,

i’m plannig to buy i new bike !!!
but i m really confused between apache RTR 160 , apache RTR 160 FI , and apache RTR 180…..

wat matterz is mileage and maintanance…???

so can anybody tell me exact mileage of apache RTR 180….and wht or how would b the bike after 2-3 years….!!!

reply soon guyzz…
i hav to book my vehicle within 2 dayz..!!!

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safwan April 10, 2010 at 5:13 pm

hi frnds
m planning to bye an apache rtr 180 bt m to cnfused as which indian bike is best in performance and miliage
as p180-fz are also competitors to apache menace

i knw dat apache 180 is best as it has a powerfull engine also d fuel injection add on
i want to knw d performance and mentainence, fuel efficency

anybdy would advice me as m planing to bye rtr180
plz sugest me

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It's now or never... June 3, 2010 at 3:12 pm

No need to go in deep, the RTR 180 scores well over the aging(even after repeated attempts by bajaj to refresh it) PULSAR 180 in every arena. The 180cc APACHE delivers more power and is easily one of the best performance oriented motorcycle in the country. In style, Pulsars are a no match for it!.
But the Apache’s small and compact riding posture may seem uncomfortable for tall riders particularly during long journeys.Seondly TVS tyres dont provide that much grip that the MRF tyres provide on Pulsar. To sum up, Overall TVS APACHE RTR is a better option than BAJAJ PULSAR.

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diks June 13, 2010 at 10:57 am

its the best bike ive ever seen and best for the youngsters to ride it with air

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Craige August 25, 2010 at 12:23 pm

Hi All,
I own an Apache 160cc.. :)
Well,i think that the 180cc is a gr8 bike and wil give gr8 competition with the P220 cos I have beat the P180 with my bike..
I think you should change the rear tyre from 17inch to the Apache 160′s 18inches tyre..it will give you more top end..
Apache is the best Indian bike and had proved its worth on Indian roads and had beats I think almost every bike on the road in long races.. :)

However, the road grip in not very good, so you may want to change the tyres to MRF tubeless tyres..

All the best with whatever bike you go for and Happy Riding.. :)

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Its now or never... August 26, 2010 at 10:34 am

but its not at all stable at high speeds, very dangerous to ride

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Tarun September 14, 2010 at 10:04 pm

Hi all,

Let me know how can a bike with 17.3 @ 8500 power gives a mileage of 45-50kms.can anybody tell me exact mileage of RTR 180.
Also pleas suggest me which one is better for long distance traveling 80-100 kms.(Average2000kms/month).
Either apache 160
RTR180
pulsar 180.
i want to buy RTR180.

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Craige January 21, 2011 at 12:09 pm

Hi Tarun..go for the 180cc Apache..its far better than the 160cc..the mileage would depend on ur ridin..my advice would be..stick to 60kmph in cities and go full throttle on the highways..that way you stay within ur mileage in cities..and enjoy it on the highway..the 160cc does give more mileage..abt 8-10 ks more am guessing…so its ur choice..and trust me..u’l enjoy the engine performance in an Apache than that of a Pulsar anyday…
But end of day..its ur decision..so all the best and happy riding… :)

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dipesh view April 19, 2011 at 11:24 pm

@Tarun
can a bike with 17.3 @ 8500 power gives a mileage of 45-50kms

To be honest 100cc bikes give 65 kmpl per litre / 125cc bike gives 55 kmpl / 150cc gives 45 kmpl / RTR160 gives 40 kmpl / RTR 180 will give 35 kmpl.. Hope you got your answer.

Only RTR 160_FI gives overall 5 kmpl more average than its carburetor sibling.
I am getting Min – 40 ( in city start stop with pillion) 45 in city with single ( aggressive riding ) 50 kmpl – On high way again aggressive riding speed between 70 to 90. Some claim that it gives even 55kmpl with soft riding.

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akash Sandilya October 19, 2010 at 11:36 am

hiiii,i m amazed to ride apache 180,its pick up is quite intresting,,but when we invest money there is need for some diffrences between rtr 10 and 180

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RAJESH January 20, 2011 at 6:42 pm

Apache180 is good one.But to be true p180 is better than apache180.New pulsar 180 has better look than Apache180.p180 red looks better than AP RTR white.Pulsar is quite cheaper than apache.On reading several review across many websites pulsar seems to be on top of apache..go for pulsar pulsar roxx!

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dipesh view April 19, 2011 at 11:29 pm

@Rajesh
New pulsar 180 has better look than Apache180.p180 red looks better than AP RTR white

Dont know which UG4/5/6/9 your taking about
BUT ” New pulsar 180 has better look than Apache180. ” is a joke of the day.

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Craige January 21, 2011 at 12:03 pm

Rajesh..think logically…ur just insulting the pulsar by calling it better..people in the Apache family dont go for looks..majority out here go for the speed and class of the bike which am sorry to say Pulsar lacks..the only good bike i think that have come from bajaj is the P200 & 220cc classes..and just for ur info…i raced the latest black P180cc with my Apache 160 RTR..and that also..i did that 109kmph..so that is a total insult..we respect the fact that you like the P180cc here but i think u should go onto that wall and praise it..i dont mean to be harsh or rude or anything like that..but this is the truth..

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gunjan January 23, 2011 at 1:00 pm

i have rtr 180. i have drive it upto 155kmph. this was not the highest speed bcoz there were mild traffic in GT road. its breaking and controlling is not good bcoz when i tried to stop it at 155 kmph it got slide. anyhow i manage to control it. but overall the bike is better than other bikes like pulsar220, karizma ZMR, yamaha r15 etc.

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dipesh view April 19, 2011 at 10:59 pm

May be thats why they used TAG =” It’s now or never ” ( well i got mine )

EFI version is still in production just check TVS OFFICIAL website insted of blogs and call there TOLL FREE number

Future is Fuel injection 75% cars running on Indian roads are EFI, cRDE diesel engine.
remember Fiat car or Old Taxi model of Ambassador tata Truck. = Carburetor
Even Delhi and mumbai have Advance buses now which run by ECU.

Apache RTR 160 FI is true VFM bike currently in India

Dealars dont have much margin in FI model ( i think even company dont have much margin in FI ) so they simply recommend A180 which is bore out version of 160 But fact is A180 isnt that rev friendly as original RTR 160 that why despite increase in power top speed improves only by 4 kmph speed. it gives more mid range power and torque than A160 its fun to ride but dont think that it will have soo much top end speed.

I don’t understand why people spread rumors may be they do this intentionally like soar grapes story. I am owner of RTR-FI when i bought My bike exactly before 1 year. price for 180 was cheap by 2000 even for p220. J
Just check price of Honda stunner PGM-GI / glamour PGM-FI then you people will realize what Fuel injection technology is. they almost need to replace 75% of spare parts to make it Fuel injected u can verified this in Tvs service center ( just ask them can u replace this and that part with Carburetor RTR ) go and check test review of Honda stunner PGM-FI / glamour FI / P220-FI ( discontinued ) you will realize that all those ECU and sensors and Fuel injection technology with processor makes bike really smooth. just Test drive Apache RTR160 Non fi and FI to feel it.

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Him October 29, 2011 at 9:41 pm

4got evary thing i want tell u guys pulsar pulsar no one can beat pulsar guys..pulsar the fastest indian..tvs apachi fuck up .apachi look like toy.

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Ajith January 19, 2012 at 6:53 pm

@Him

go cry to ur mama kiddo!..wen it comes to looks speed n clas apache rocks…..pulsars get their looks by adding so many extra fittings..n apache dnt need it

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